Hey there! Thanks for joining us for this week’s installment of the Oathbringer Reread, in which Dalinar returns to one of his early visions and is joined by Navani and Jasnah. Along with observation, they have an extended conversation with the Stormfather, by means of which we learn a whole lot of history, and some theology as well. Also, I go back to the Prelude a lot.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There is a tiny minor Cosmere reference in The Singing Storm. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done, because we talk about Later Events this week.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru (vision: somewhere in the stormlands, 4500 years ago)
WHEN: 1174.1.6.4 (Three days after Rock’s chapter)
Dalinar heads into another vision, this time with Navani and Jasnah in tow.
The Singing Storm
Title: Broken People
The Desolations were so terrible they destroyed learning and progress and left behind a broken people.
THEY WERE BROKEN PEOPLE, the Stormfather said. BUT I CAN START TO FORGIVE THEM, AND THEIR SHATTERED OATHS. IT MAKES … SENSE TO ME NOW AS IT NEVER DID BEFORE.
Alice: Such a fitting title for the chapter where we see again the battle from the Prelude, with its primitive setting; and we learn the history of the Oathpact, and of the Heralds who first forged it and then abandoned it. There’s an interesting echo in that the Radiants are (mostly) also broken people, but they are broken before they gain their powers, while the Heralds are broken in the process of using their powers.
Lyn: Do we know for sure that the Heralds didn’t need to be broken before they got their powers?
A: We don’t know much about them prior to their Heraldification, except that they went to Honor of their own accord; it’s implied that nine of the ten were people of importance, since the Stormfather calls Taln “the one who was not a king, scholar, or general.” There’s no indication that they were anything less than “ideal” people—and indeed, they managed to hold out for centuries at a time, when they started. So we don’t know they weren’t broken, but the evidence suggests to me that they weren’t.
Heralds
Chanarach (Dustbringers, divine attributes of Brave and Obedient) and Ishar (Bondsmiths, Herald of Luck. Divine attributes Pious and Guiding.)
A: There are three levels to this, at least, that I can see. One is that within this story, we learn how the Heralds were broken so that they failed in their courage, their obedience to their pact, their commitment to their gods, and their guidance of the people of Roshar. In that sense, we’ve got the opposites of their attributes in play. Another is that Dalinar shows bravery in a couple of ways: in his fighting, and according to Jasnah’s tribute, in his willingness to share the truth of his visions despite the consequences to himself; as a Bondsmith, he also rates Ishar just for who he is. On a more meta level, I went back and reviewed the prelude, which showed first-hand the events that the Stormfather explained in this chapter. There, Kalak specifically noted the activity of the Dustbringers, and Jezrien related Ishar’s decision that the Oathpact could hold with only one Herald still bound to it. I’ll address this a little more below.
Icon
Kholin glyph
Epigraph
Your skills are admirable, but you are merely a man. You had your chance to be more, and refused it.
L: “Merely” a man? With all of the investments Hoid has, I’d say he’s considerably more than “merely” a man at this point. But the “chance to be more” part… do we have any WoBs on this? When/where did Hoid have the chance to hold a Shard?
A: We have a WoB that Hoid was present at the Shattering, and refused to pick up a Shard. I don’t think we know why—I think that’s part of Hoid’s mysterious backstory. Sounds like Edgli thinks less of him for that decision!
Buy the Book
Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds
Stories & Songs
A: Well, clearly this is going to be the super-long section this week! There’s a boatload of back-story to the entire series, right in this chapter.
Now he recognized the truth. That was a Voidbringer.
But there had been no Everstorm in the past; the Stormfather confirmed that. So where had these things come from, back during this time?
L: A good question. I also find it interesting that they have humans working with them. Dalinar asks the same later in the chapter:
“I never put it together before,” Dalinar said. “There were men who fought for the Voidbringers?”
Some.
A: So Moash isn’t the first human to side with the Voidbringers…
The cliff face shook as if something huge had struck it. And then the stones nearby rippled. … The stone face seemed to shimmer and undulate, like the surface of a pond that had been disturbed.
L: This is cool if for nothing else than the first time we *really* get to see these powers manifest.
A: It was awesome to get a look at the functioning powers of an order we’re not likely to get close to until somewhere in the back half of the series. I hope he does this with other orders, too.
“It’s one of those devices I mentioned from another vision. The ones that provide Regrowth, as they call it. Healing.”
A: I loved Navani’s reaction to the fabrial. Absolute, perfect Navani. “A fabrial? Oooh, let me see!”
L: I find it really cool that this particular fabrial is mimicking a Surge. Have we seen any modern fabrials that do so? Soulcasters, perhaps?
A: As far as I know, these two are the only ones we’ve heard of. At one point, they assumed the Shardblades were also “ancient fabrials”—an idea they had to give up once they realized what they really were. We don’t know yet where Shardplate falls. Hey, here’s a wacky theory: maybe the Soulcaster and Regrowth fabrials are just like Shardplate—formed by (as I firmly assume!) “volunteer” spren of the lesser orders associated with the greater ones. So … let’s see… if cultivationspren like Wyndle have lifespren as their lesser cousins, Lift could have Plate made of lifespren, but could also “grow” a Regrowth fabrial from lifespren. I think that would be seriously cool. I’m putting it on my list of things to query Brandon about next time I see him!!
“We’ve gone back to ancient times.”
“Yes, Uncle,” Jasnah said. “But didn’t you tell me this vision comes at the end of the Desolations?” … “So the vision with the Midnight Mother happened before this, chronologically. Yet you saw steel, or at least iron, in that one.”
…
“This is confirmation of what we’ve been told, but which I could never quite believe. The Desolations were so terrible they destroyed learning and progress and left behind a broken people.”
A: The Stormfather is going to explain this in just a bit: in the vision with the Midnight Mother, it had likely been centuries since the last Desolation, and civilization had recovered. In this one, they’d had less than a year since the previous Desolation, and even before that they’d been separated by years rather than decades, even. No wonder they were such a mess.
Other sections looked as if they’d been broken by an impossible weight, while yet others had strangely shaped holes ripped in them.
L: Well, that later latter is probably what remains of a Thunderclast, but what about the former? Windrunners doing superhero-landings, perhaps? (I say this only half tongue-in-cheek.)
A: So. Much. History. The following is from the Stormfather, condensed a little for quotation purposes:
IT STARTED WITH THE CREATURES YOU NAME VOIDBRINGERS. LONG BEFORE, THERE WERE MANY SOULS OF CREATURES WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN, ANGRY AND TERRIBLE. THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN GREAT POWER BY ODIUM. THAT WAS THE BEGINNING, THE START OF DESOLATIONS. FOR WHEN THESE DIED, THEY REFUSED TO PASS ON. THEY ARE THE SPREN OF PARSHMEN LONG DEAD: THEIR KINGS, THEIR LIGHTEYES, THEIR VALIANT SOLDIERS FROM LONG, LONG AGO. THE PROCESS IS NOT EASY ON THEM. SOME OF THESE SPREN ARE MERE FORCES NOW, ANIMALISTIC, FRAGMENTS OF MINDS GIVEN POWER BY ODIUM. OTHERS ARE MORE … AWAKE. EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MINDS. THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM. HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT.
A: Just like that, we’re given a history dump to explain so much of what’s happening. And he’s not done. He goes on to explain that, similar to the way Odium was sealed (to the Rosharan system, as is explained elsewhere) by the powers of Honor and Cultivation, the Heralds voluntarily made a pact to seal these Parshman spren onto Braize, thinking it would end the wars. (Side note: this clarifies that it is indeed not the Oathpact that holds Odium; that effect is still a mystery. The Oathpact was about Heralds and Voidbringers, not Shards.)
Anyway, it would have worked, except for one small detail: spren and Shards are by their very nature unable to break an oath, but men are not made that way. They can break an oath, and they will if there is sufficient cause; under the Oathpact, if a single Herald bent the oath to allow a Voidbringer through, they were all free to return, beginning a new Desolation. Naturally, then, the angry spren eventually found the Heralds and tortured them until one broke.
THEY COULD SHARE THE PAIN BECAUSE OF THEIR BOND—BUT EVENTUALLY, SOMEONE ALWAYS YIELDED. ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. … EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER. THE CYCLE REPEATED.
A: That line just hurts. “To hide, fight, and finally withstand together.” Like the Stormfather, I have a new understanding of what the Heralds withstood, and why they finally broke the Oathpact. At first, they would hold out for centuries—perhaps at first, it took longer for the spirits to find them, too—but as time went on, they could take less and less of the torture, which is not at all surprising. Though the first Desolations were centuries apart, the last ones were down to decades, and then years, and finally months. And then…
THE NINE REALIZED, the Stormfather said, THAT ONE OF THEM HAD NEVER BROKEN. … THE ONE WHO WASN’T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL. … THE BEARER OF AGONIES. THE ONE ABANDONED IN DAMNATION. LEFT TO WITHSTAND THE TORTURES ALONE.
“Almighty above,” Navani whispered. “How long has it been? Over a thousand years, right?”
FOUR AND A HALF THOUSAND YEARS, the Stormfather said. FOUR AND A HALF MILLENNIA OF TORTURE.
A: Just… just let that sink in for a little, before you move on. Four thousand five hundred years, alone, tortured so that others could have peace.
L: Something weird there, though. Did he not break in any of the previous ones either? They do say NEVER broke. If that’s the case then…. how did the desolation keep happening?
A: As I read it, for each Desolation, only one of the Heralds would break, but as soon as that happened, all ten would return to Roshar to help humans prepare for the upcoming Desolation. Once the Voidbringers were defeated and all sent back to Damnation, all ten would again return themselves, to start the cycle again.
L: Ah, that makes more sense. I’d been under the mistaken assumption that ALL of them needed to break each time. And now that I’m looking at it again, it says it right there in the text:
ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR.
So clearly I just wasn’t reading closely enough all this time!
A: So in all that time, each of the Heralds had at least one turn at being the weak link… except for Taln. And when he broke, here’s what he had to say, if you’ll let me return to the Prelude:
“Who am I? I … I am Talenel’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty. The Desolation has come. Oh, God … it has come. And I have failed.”
A: That just blows my mind. If it’s “failure” to succumb after 4500 years of torture, I’m sunk. We all are.
Anyway, once Dalinar adds a few things together, he realizes that his “madman” really is a Herald, but the Stormfather assures him that the Shardblade he unbonded the night he became a Bondsmith was not Taln’s Honorblade. Also, no, Stormdad is not omniscient and doesn’t know what happened to it.
Relationships & Romances
Navani took his arm in hers and looked after Jasnah, a fond smile on her lips. No, none would think Jasnah emotionless if they’d witnessed that tearful reunion between mother and daughter.
“How did you ever mother that one?” Dalinar asked.
“Mostly without letting her realize she was being mothered,” Navani said.
A: There you have it. It was a very emotional reunion.
I do understand why some readers would like to have seen that happen, rather than merely being told that it did. Personally, I’m okay with not seeing it, because in my opinion, it wouldn’t have contributed positively to the storytelling at that point. YMMV, obviously.
L: It’s important to remember that when choosing which scenes to include in a novel, the writer has many different things to weigh. Does this scene forward plot, character, and worldbuilding? If not, is it really necessary? I’d argue that, while it would have been nice to have seen this scene, it would have added nothing new to what we already knew about Navani or Jasnah’s characters. Nor would it have added anything to the plot, or the worldbuilding.
A: This. This is what I kept trying to figure out how to say… Trust a writer to clarify the writing issues! (It’s a good thing you’re here, Lyn!)
Also, this is as good a place as any for a couple of quotes from the Jasnah-Dalinar conversation, which are well worth the mention:
“You have given the world a grand gift. A man can be brave in facing down a hundred enemies, but coming into these—and recording them rather than hiding them—was bravery on an entirely different level.”
“It was mere stubbornness. I refused to believe I was mad.”
“Then I bless your stubbornness, Uncle.”
A: This whole section shows something wonderful: two people who are used to hiding their deeper thoughts, now being open and honest with one another. What’s more, they’re looking things right in the face, not being defensive about their own position, genuinely looking for truth. At this point, most of what they have to offer one another is encouragement, but it speaks very well of their relationship.
“I don’t deny God, Jasnah,” he said. “I simply believe that the being we call the Almighty was never actually God.”
“Which is the wise decision to make, considering the accounts of your visions.” Jasnah settled down beside him.
“You must be happy to hear me say that,” he said.
“I’m happy to have someone to talk to, and I’m certainly happy to see you on a journey of discovery. But am I happy to see you in pain? Am I happy to see you forced to abandon something you held dear?” She shook her head.
“I don’t mind people believing what works for them, Uncle. That’s something nobody ever seems to understand—I have no stake in their beliefs. I don’t need company to be confident.”
A: Isn’t that just Jasnah in a nutshell? I sometimes wish more people could believe what they believe without needing so stinking much validation and approval from everyone else. I do have one quibble with that attitude, though: people will only act on what they believe to be true, and with the end of the world at hand, people are going to need to understand a few things. Well, in context, it’s almost too late for that, anyway.
Bruised & Broken
NO. THAT IS A DEEPER SECRET, ONE I WILL NOT SPEAK. … WERE YOU TO KNOW IT, YOU WOULD ABANDON YOUR OATHS AS THE ANCIENT RADIANTS DID.
“I wouldn’t.”
WOULDN’T YOU? WOULD YOU SWEAR IT? SWEAR UPON AN UNKNOWN? THESE HERALDS SWORE THEY WOULD HOLD BACK THE VOIDBRINGERS, AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM? THERE IS NOT A MAN ALIVE WHO HAS NOT BROKEN AN OATH, DALINAR KHOLIN. … YOU KNOW THE IMPORTANT PARTS. THE REST IS IRRELEVANT.
Dalinar drew in a deep breath, but contained his anger. In a way, the Stormfather was right. He couldn’t know how this secret would affect him or his Radiants.
He’d still rather know it.
A: The last burning question will remain unanswered for now, and in retrospect we all have to question the Stormfather’s decision here. One of the beta readers showed excellent foresight in this regard—and we didn’t know the ending when this comment was made: “No. NO! BAD IDEA, Stormy. Anything that could cause Radiants to abandon their oaths is EXTREMELY important. It could become a weapon for the Voidbringers! Better to see if they will abandon now, than have the truth-bomb dropped on them later at a critical moment!” (Yes, we talk to the characters a lot….) Which is, of course, pretty much what happened, except that it was a weapon for Taravangian and it broke the coalition rather than the oh-so-few Radiants.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that, for all the damage it did and the uncertainty it caused, the natural instinct for survival is strong enough to keep most people in the fight. Whatever may have been done by their ancestors in the past, the things they faced at Thaylen City will keep humanity fighting to survive. So maybe he was right after all. If this truth had to come out, maybe it’s better when they see what they’re facing.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
Places & Peoples
… a young man stumbled in. He was pale of skin, with strange, wide Shin eyes and brown hair that had a curl to it. He could have been one of any number of Shin men Dalinar had seen in his own time—they were still ethnically distinct, despite the passing of millennia.
The man fell to his knees before the wonder of the abandoned Honorblades.
A: There are a number of references to Shin characters in this scene, including Dalinar being addressed by a Shin-style name. While the descriptions of the land sound much more like the stormlands than Shinovar, I can’t help wondering if this young man is the reason the Shin held the Honorblades for so long. Was he the only one who saw this place, and reported back to his superiors, who eventually came and collected them for safekeeping? Were they directed to do so by Honor or Cultivation? Or did they just up and sneak off with them right away? I want the answers to these questions—and I’ll bet I don’t get any of them until Book 5.
L: Assuming that Book 5 is Szeth’s flashbook book. I’m still hoping that he gets Book 4, personally—I’m dying to find out more about him!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Why in Damnation would that be cheating? You made no oath.
Dalinar smiled to hear a fragment of God cursing. He wondered if the Stormfather was picking up bad habits from him.
A: ::gigglesnort::
Weighty Words
A figure resplendent in Shardplate—each piece visibly glowing an amber color at its edges despite the daylight—hauled itself onto their ledge. The imposing figure stood even larger than other men wearing Shardplate.
“Flee,” the Shardbearer commanded. “Get your men to the healers.”
“How?” Dalinar asked. “The cliff—”
Dalinar started. The cliff had handholds now.
The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up toward the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.
A: It was this scene that made me think perhaps Stonewards had formed Urithiru. The way the stone flows and writhes reminded me a lot of the way the tower’s strata are described, forming patterns that stone cannot make by only natural causes. I’m not sure that it was actually the Stonewards, but it was almost certainly the same Surge.
Merely a Stoneward. That surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.
A: We have Word of Peter that this is incorrect, unfortunately. This is the Surge of Cohesion in action, but the second Surge Dalinar can use is Tension. There are similarities, but it’s not the same thing. Oh well. In case you’re wondering, it seems that both affect molecular bonds, but in different ways. And… well, that’s about all I can say about it, because I don’t know any more!
They crested the slope, then passed several blackened patches. What could burn rock like that?
A: Referring back again to the Prelude, Kalak noted at the time that these were caused by the Dustbringers.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
A: Reading more of their history in this chapter gave me a couple of new thoughts on the Prelude that I wanted to mention here.
Kalak found himself shaking. When had he become so weak? “Jezrien, I can’t return this time.” Kalak whispered the words, stepping up and gripping the other man’s arm. “I can’t.”
A: So Kalak, patron of the Willshapers, with the Divine Attributes of “Resolute, Builder,” has lost all his resolve, and is willing to tear down the Oathpact which he once helped build.
There, In Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cliff by a thread.
…
“Better that one man should suffer than ten,” Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.
A: Jezrien, the King, patron of Windrunners, with the Divine Attributes of “Leading, Protecting,” now leads only to abandonment, he sets aside all attempt at protection, and he is willing to let one man suffer for everyone rather than returning to bear his share of the burden.
“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”
A: Ishar, the Priest, Pious and Guiding, is choosing to believe what they all want to believe, and like Jezrien, is guiding the Heralds and the humans into lies. According to Navani’s comment, Vorinism has taught that this was the day the Heralds “made their final ascension to the Tranquiline Halls, to lead the battle there instead.” How much of Vorin belief is based on lies the Heralds told them from this day?
And now we see the consequences of those lies:
THE OATHPACT HAS BEEN WEAKENED ALMOST TO ANNIHILATION, AND ODIUM HAS CREATED HIS OWN STORM. THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.
It looks like in the past, when a Fused was killed, it was returned to Damnation just like the Heralds were. The end of a Desolation, presumably, came when the last Fused was killed and sent back; at that point, any Heralds who survived also returned to Braize to hide, etc. That’s not going to happen this time around: they’re going to have to find some way to actually destroy each Fused, or they’ll just keep returning and body-snatching more hapless singers as long as there are any left alive.
People, this is not good.
Quality Quotations
These men weren’t well trained, but any fool with a sharpened edge could be dangerous.
* * *
Just heal yourself, the Stormfather said.
“I used to be able to shrug off things like this.” Dalinar looked down at his missing arm. Well, perhaps nothing as bad as this.
You’re old, the Stormfather said.
A: Reminds me of my dad, getting frustrated that he could only handle a 24” gas chainsaw at arms length for 20 minutes before needing to rest… when he was 72 years old. Heh. You’re old.
Ahead of them, Navani had somehow bullied the Radiant into letting her look at the fabrial.
A: Yep, that’s Navani, all right! “You have a fabrial, I get to examine it.”
People were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah, but Dalinar considered that unfair. She did smile—she merely reserved the expression for when it was most genuine.
* * *
“They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity.”
L: This is one of my favorite quotes. It reminds me a little of that great line in A Song if Ice and Fire: “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
Navani returned, mumbling explanations of what she’d seen under her breath. Teshav sat with her in the waking world, and Kalami with Jasnah, recording what they said—the only way to take notes in one of these visions.
A: I just had to include this and grin at their solutions. Well done! The only better one is later, when Navani suggests bringing Shallan in to observe things she can draw with exactitude later.
Well. That was quite the history lesson. I still can’t believe he told us ALL THAT so early in this book. Next week we’ll rejoin Shallan for Chapters 39 and 40, so get ready for that! In the meantime, as always, play nicely in the comments, and we’ll see you there!
Alice is actually eager for school to start; she needs a rest! August is just crazy busy, and all this smoke from forest fires all around the West is not helping matters.
Lyndsey is currently taking a well-needed vacation. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
I agree whole heartedly that it was surprising to have this much backstory just handed to us. It was a pleasant surprise though, and it makes more sense than the alternative in light of Stormfather being with the PCs now.
The other heralds talk about Taln as being the one who was never supposed to be a herald, yet Roshar would have been so much better off with ten Talns than with ten like the other nine.
This statement that Shards can’t break their oaths bugs me a bit. I accept it for the sake of the story, but it feels not completely true.
OB Ch. 37 Epigraph:
“You mustn’t worry yourself about Rayse. It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish–violating our pact from the very beginning.”
Now maybe they made this pact before they ascended, but that puts the cart before the horse. “Hey after we kill this god and take its power, which should be a slam dunk, we’re not gonna hang out with each other”.
Mistborn Secret History Spoilers:
Preservation tells us: “I was killed long ago, when I made the decision to break our promise.”
This promise was definitely made after they ascended.
Maybe I answered my own question in #2 above. Shards CAN break an oath/pact/promise, but it is fatal to them.
So how bad would the desolations have to be to wipe out knowledge of forging iron? It seems like they’d have to lose all or almost all of their blacksmiths or at least their forges. Which suggests they should also lose the ability to forge bronze.
Noblehunter @@.-@ – I assume that they lose all or most of the facilities as well as many of the people with knowledge. And depending on one thing and another, when people are desperate just to find enough food to survive, they’ll abandon a lot of knowledge that’s not immediately useful.
Karsomir – I think you’re right about Preservation, in that he sacrificed himself in the process. About “our pact” though, I suspect Edgli might see it differently than others. We just don’t know enough about it.
Something occured to me while reading this. Do we know where the term Vorinism comes from? Is it named after someone? Like Buddhism being named after Buddah, or Christianity for Christ. Was it founded by someone named Vor?
@6 Do we know the name of the person who held the shard of Honor?
@7 – The holder of the Shard of Honor was named Tanavast
Not an option any more, but seems like the Heralds should have just killed all but one of the Fused. Yeah there’s still a Fused out there, but at least there’s only one. Trap it on an island or something. Then you’re in an eternal Desolation, but at least it’s not, you know, the height of a Desolation Haven’t seen anything out of the Fused in book so far to suggest that you couldn’t have assigned 20 or so Radiants to keeping it pinned down constantly.
I’m guessing that Tension strengthens molecular bonds and Cohesion breaks apart molecular bonds.
@6 7 8
I believe there’s a theory that Vo the first returned founded Vorinism, however I think Vo died after a week? So maybe not, or maybe there’s some complex back story of Nalthian Vo-worshippers coming to Roshar and forming a syncretic religion with the locals.
@2 Karsomir
The pact all the shards made to keep separate and the pact Preservation was referring to are different. The pact Preservation was referring to was Mistborn Spoilers whited out below
His pact with Ruin to create Scadrial. The deal was if Ruin helped Preservation make the planet, then after a certain amount of time Ruin could destroy it. Preservation broke this deal by trapping Ruin. Using his power to “trap” Ruin weakened him enough for a long slow death.
Personally I think the pact between the Vessels was made after shattering Adonalsium but just as they decided to pick up the shards. I think it was meant to prevent Adonalsium from being reformed.
@@.-@ noblehunter
I would have to check, but I think they go over the linguistics at some point in Oathbringer, explaining that the original language was primarily verbal without a written analogue, and that the voidbringers did target locations where knowledge was stored. Also Taln mentions how due to the lack of time for preparation, instead of teaching them to cast bronze, they would soulcast the metal directly. So I figure enough times with people with the knowledge dying, not enough time to train new people, and using soulcasting for expediency could potentially explain the loss.
@9 havokinetic
I believe it is either mentioned in Oathbringer or in WoB that if the heralds do not return to damnation in a certain amount of time, the desolation starts up all over again. So I would hazard if they detained a single fused without at least one of the Heralds returning, the desolation would begin again. At least that’s how I take it
@10 Austin
Yeah Brandon has confirmed that cohesion is treating as if the entire world is clay that you can mold, and tension is being able to for instance take a piece of paper, and making it as rigid and strong as steel.
Now for my own thoughts on the chapter
The Oathpact does not directly bind Odium, but it was part of his binding tangentially.
Personally my theory is that Taln never did break. Odium fed up with trying to get him to break came up with the work around that is the Everstorm. Now Taln did return prior to the Everstorm, which would seemingly disprove it, but by that point I believe Venli had already taken stormform so that could have set things in motion. I know I do not have a whole lot to back it up, but I am leaning towards it for now till more info shows up.
I love the subtly of Jasnah’s emotions through all three books. For me it makes every moment we see them 100 times more powerful. Jasnah is reserved with Shallan till she thinks Shallan committed suicide, and then we see how much Jasnah cares for her. We think Jasnah does not care for Taravangian, yet in the scene with the street thugs, we see she admires him, and wishes to repay his kindness. We know she respects Dalinar, but do not realize the depth of emotion till we see the flash back they share when Gavilar dies and she reads Way of Kings to him, and her heart to heart with him in this chapter. And finally we only hear glimmers of her relationship with Renarin till the big moment where she holds and comforts him. This does not mean she only cares when extreme situations demonstrate themselves, but that she holds those feelings very precious and shows them when important but as we see with Dalinar, anyone who truly knows Jasnah, knows how she feels. Like my wife’s uncle, he may not say he loves you, but he shows it in his way, and for that, those actions are all the stronger.
I do love to watch as the spren evolve and grow in personality with each subsequent oath sworn. It truly lets us appreciate and understand the radiant on a deeper level as the radiant and spren play off each other.
It would make more sense the other way around. Tension should pull things apart, while cohesion means holding together.
Skilled Aiel dreamwalkers can also talk to someone in the waking world while in a dream trance. That is probably where Brandon got the idea.
@14 birgit
Brandon Sanderson
The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the “grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..” it’s the weak atomic force. It’s, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that’s a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.
Brandon Sanderson
Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that’s the one that sent me there partially. Like, I’m not actually….the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it’s not like I’m actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it’s not really surface tension. it’s more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I’m trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn’t work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like….cloth. I’m calling it surface tension, but it’s not really surface tension.
Questioner
Tensile strength?
Brandon Sanderson
It’s kind of like tensile strength.
I love Jasnah and this scene is why she’s one of my favorite characters. Which is maybe weird as I’m religious and she’s an athiest but I still feel like we see eye to eye on a lot of things.
Taln is great and I want to give him a hug and I hope we learn more about him. Why wasn’t he supposed to be with them in the first place? I wonder if he has some kind of ‘humble’ type of profession – such as making him a gardner (Samwise!) or carpenter (possibly too on the nose ;) ). But I’m always kind of a sucker for the whole idea of heroism coming from the humble/little guys.
@14 – I think of tension as the bunching up of molecules. Think about when you get tense. Your shoulders hunch up and your body becomes stiff. Cohesion doesn’t necessarily refer to holding things together. Rather, it can refer to the concept of things connected together. Something held loosely together and something held tightly together can both refer to the concept of cohesion.
@2
I don’t think the pact between Ruin and Preservation was a formal oath and pact so much as it was a consequence of the way their powers worked. Ruin permitted Preservation to put more of his essence into the humans, knowing that that would produce an imbalance in their powers that would eventually allow Ruin to overpower Preservation and end it all. Neither of them needed to make a formal oath for this to work.
The successive Desolations within the same generation must have been like having WWI and WWII within the same generation. WWI was supposed to be the war that ended all wars. Yet a little over 20 years later, there is a new world war.
Since Odium is not held within the Roasharian system due to the Oathpact and the Fused can return via the Everstorm, what would the consequence if all the Heralds (or at the least the 9 living ones post OB) end the Oathpact for good? I have no guesses and would welcome any theories.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@19 AndrewHB
So found a WoB that you might find very interesting
Questioner
Are all the Heralds still alive?
Brandon Sanderson
The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes
Perhaps Jezerezeh being killed for good is Odium’s attempt at ending the Oathpact for good?
Now here’s an interesting question: If the Everstorm is new, then what mechanism did the Fused originally use to return? Were they simply able to seize another body as soon as they were killed? Did they ride the Highstorms instead, since those are what allow singers to change forms normally?
I wonder where the other surge fabrials are. Or why there don’t seem to be any. We have Soulcasters in modern Roshar, and Regrowers ™ existed at one point, but where are the rest? Some of the other surges could have been put to incredible use in a mundane fashion like soulcasters.
@21 It’s implied Fused who were killed during a Desolation were sent back to Damnation. It isn’t said how they took new bodies when a desolation started.
@22 kefka
Well the oathgates seem to be a fabrial of transportation. As for fabrials of other surges, Brandon had this to say (it does not really answer your question, but does add information I hope)
ebilutionist
Regarding soulcasting, I have a question, why do people continue to use it post-recreance? Would it not have been seen as a betrayal, given that the Radiants abandoned them? Why this surge but not others? Was it simply the only surge available and people would have kept using the others anyway? I guess it’s a matter of practicality but given how devourt Vorinism can be it does seem odd.
Brandon Sanderson
Good question. You’ll notice that soulcasters aren’t the only fabrial that access a surge, however. They’re just the one most commonly used. There are plenty of rationalizations. But it comes down to this, they are too useful to give up.
ebilutionist
Isn’t the regrowth fabrial incredibly rare? I was under the impression it disappeared with the Recreance and only Nin’s reappearance brought it back. AFAIK, only a Radiant in Dalinar’s vision and a Herald have actually used it so far.
Brandon Sanderson
Their rarity depends on the time period in question. But yes, I’d list them as incredibly rare.
I love this chapter!!! The history download is what I’ve been waiting for since the Prologue in WoK. The idea of Desolations coming so often is so scary, and the ease with which we lose knowledge we don’t use combined with them explains the lack of tech. But I still feel like there’s more to the story. The Stormfather isn’t the most reliable narrator, as we can se with his refusal to share the BIG secret. What else are we missing and don’t even know it yet?
Jasnah here is what everyone should have as a mom/friend/mentor. Someone who wants you be your true/authentic self. There are SO many voices telling us what we aren’t (or are or should be) that it’s hard to know who is right.
Also: I want to see more types of Radiant surges in use. That Stoneward was super cool!!! Why do we have to wait for more?!!? (I know, because it takes long to write and it’s okay. I just don’t like waiting. Nothing else is this good!)
@16 Lisamarie and others –
“Why wasn’t he supposed to be with them in the first place?”
No firm answer of course (at least that I am aware of) – but it is intriguing that according to how this is written it seems like the original intent was to have 9 of them, what has been confirmed (I believe?) as the “holy” number of Odium, and from the later revelations, he had a huge impact on pre-Rosharan Human society. So, who proposed the 9 to start with? I would guess the humans who just assumed that 9 people would be the most powerful configuration due to their own religious assumptions. But perhaps then Honor inserted the last person to bring it to his number 10 (and thus influencing the new direction, religious discourse, and assumptions of all humans going forward to the present in Rosharan societies, particularly Vorinism)?
Another question: Why were the Fused regarded as so unbeatable? Without Voidlight, they are as vulnerable as any other singer. They may be able to reincarnate, but each Fused reincarnation requires a sacrifice to provide the body, so the singers still have to take the same losses either way.
@26 sillyslovene
There is a theory going round that numbers associated to a magic system arise from the interaction between a Shard and the planet. This gets a little blurred as sometimes Brandon says the entire Rosharan system is 10 centric, but then confirms that Braize (which is in the Rosharan system) is 9 centric because of Odium. Then again considering the continent, the planet and the planetary system are called Roshar, that could lead to confusion. But that is a very interesting point. Was honor asking for 10 volunteers, and only 9 important people stepped up, with the 10th being a random guy, or was the original oathpact meant for 9 to counter Odium’s 9 centric system, but Taln showed up and made it 10. Can’t wait to find out! :)
@27 Aeshdan
There is a theory going around that we have not actually seen voidbinding yet (except in Renarin’s case). It was confirmed by the end of Words of Radiance we have not seen voidbinding, but that does not extend to Oathbringer. The theory (which personally I am not sure which side of the fence I sit), says that the fused using surges is not voidbinding. That is Odium bending another magic system to his use. That actual voidbinding functions differently than the surges we have seen so far. So if that theory is correct, perhaps the original voidbinding was powerful in its own right. Also the implication is in the past the fused had means other than the Everstorm to attain voidlight. Ba-ado-mishram is one example. Some theorize the voidlight was fueled directly from Odium.
@27
First, I think Scath (@28) is correct that there was voidlight before, but it was brought via an unmade rather than the Everstorm. But, as the Stormfather said, even before using voidlight they were dangerous. While I see your point about how it is still a loss of a body/person even if they come back I see two mitigating factors. At that time, it is likely that the parsh were far more numerous than the humans as humans would be relatively new to the planet and likely have a smaller population. Couple that with the fused bring back their experience and even though you are losing soldiers, your remaining (newly fused soldiers) are more experiences and better than before. It reminds me of things like shadow clones in Naruto – where one advantage of clones is that when they “die” and return to you they bring their experience with them so you learn faster. Or think “Edge of Tomorrow”. Or Mat in WoT. Basically, getting the additional experience and learning is a net positive for the parsh if they have a significant numbers edge but military knowledge deficit.
@29 whitespine
To clarify regarding that theory I mentioned. The stormfather never said it was before they used voidlight. He said it was before they used the surges. The theory posits that actual voidbinding has nothing to do with the surges. That the fused we have seen flying around with gravitation are using a form of the surges co-opted via Odium, but is not actual voidbinding. That actual voidbinding is an entirely different creature. Not saying I prescribe to it, but I just wanted to clarify to hopefully represent the theory better.
If that was not actually what you were saying, I apologize in advance.
I do agree, keeping skills across death is also a huge boon. It is the difference between having to spend time training a brand new combatant, and having every soldier automatically be skilled the moment they show up.
Is it just me or is this week’s reread not linked to the index page?
@31 – No, you were correct. Fixed now. Thanks for letting us know!
I still think the reveal we get in OB about the Recreance was not the whole story. Fear of destroying the planet, finding out that your side used to be the bad guys- that’s reason to retire from active Surgebinding. But to have nine tenths of the Knights Radient, not just stop using their powers, but to go out of the way to murder their spren? Can you see Kaladin or Shallan deliberately killing Syl or Pattern, even if they thought their powers were dangerous?
@33
Don’t forget that Tanavast, Vessel of Honor, author of their powers and their nominal God was at dying at the time, and was raving at the time that the Knights would once again destroy a world with surges. From my understanding the fact that humans were not native to Roshar and were the original Voidbringers was a fact known to all the Knights at one time; Honor used to be able to keep them on task. When your God is specifically telling you that your powers will break the world, that they’ve already broken one world, it makes it hard to stick to your guns.
So I definitely have mixed feelings about this all:
1. Poor Taln. They lucked out that it was the right decision, but man. I don’t know if it’s better or worse that they came to it through “cowardice”, rather than thinking through the problem “logically.” I can’t even imagine if Dalinar and co had to make a “choice” like that.
2. Why did Honor think they would hold? The Oathpact shouldn’t have been a permanent solution. Maybe if they lost their memory of being tortured everytime they returned, they would have been spared part of the torment.
3. Where is Cultivation in all of this? I can’t imagine why she didn’t fight with Honor if they were together pre-ascendance.
What a chapter.
Can we permanently refer to the Stormfather as Stormy or Stormdad from now on?
Taln is, already, the most heroic character in the SA, and maybe even the entire Cosmere. Four and half millenia of torture, alone; and when he finally wakes up to himself when Dalinar brings the realms together, he states what a wonderful thing it was that he gave humanity time to rebuild. What a legend. I seriously hope we get to see Taln fully come back to himself, maybe during the second half of the series. And Stonesinew is SUCH a cool name.
If Jezrien is dead, is the Oathpact finished? Is Jezrien really dead? Or is he just trapped in the dagger?
Taln spent 4500 years of torture alone, abandoned by his friends and allies.
His first thought when he discovers how long he was tortured? “What a wonderful thing. What a gift you gave them! Time to recover, for once, between Desolations. Time to progress. They never had a chance before. But this time time… yes, maybe, maybe they do.”
Roshar doesn’t deserve you, Taln, you beautiful man.
While I tend to dislike when authors use them, I actually liked the info dump we got within this chapter. As someone who doesn’t pay much attention to the over-arching story arc, I enjoyed having a chapter summarizing the facts, what we do know while clarifying a few things.
This week, Lyndsey asks, when referring to the absence of the Navani/Jasnah reunion scene:
My answer is the following:
The scene might not forward the plot, the characters nor the worldbuilding, but it does forward readers emotions by using their sense of expectation to ramp up a proper emotional response. In other words, being told a scene happened is not the same as reading it. For instance, being told “a bridge crew has arrived and will help the Kholins escape the Tower” is not the same as reading it happening and unfolding under our eyes.
Hence, as a reader, I do believe some scenes are necessary, if not helpful, for readers to reach emotional fulfillment.
@@@@@ scath, 13 – I love Jasnah, too. I don’t read her as unemotional at all, just as a person who shows her emotions primarily through actions until they explode from her in all their depth in rare occasions, as with Renarin, Shallan, etc. I personally think people wouldn’t read her as unemotional at all if she were a man. My dad, for example, is just like this with his emotions.
@@@@@ 36 & 37 – Taln is a gem! I can’t wait until the re-read of the chapter when he becomes lucid again for the discussion about him.
This chapter is awesome. I LOVE infodump chapters; the depth and history of the story is why I love the Cosmere books.
This got me wondering about the Shattering. Do we know how many pieces Adonalsium was broken into, and how many people were present? I know there are (or were) 17 shards, but, since Hoid was present and didn’t take up a shard, what happened to it?
Were there 18 people present and Hoid decided not to take one of the 17?
Were there 18 people (including Hoid) and 18 shards, and one was never claimed (and so is “wild” or else broken/scattered like Honor is now)?
Where there 18 people, 18 shards, and one person took up two shards (like Ruin and Preservation became Harmony)?
Roger @40 – There were only 16 Shards. “The Seventeenth Shard” is an organization, whose purposes aren’t clear yet. We don’t know how or when Hoid was given the chance to take up a Shard – if it was during the preparations or on the spot. We also don’t know how many people were involved, though we know there were three races. All we know is that Hoid was present, and 16 individuals took up the 16 Shards. We’ll have to wait for the Dragonsteel book/series to know for sure.
Wasn’t Frost present at the Shattering as well? I don’t think he has a Shard and he knows all about the conflict. If Frost isn’t a Vessel then it’s conceivable that there were 18 people in that room. Still only 16 Vessels though. Another possibility is that Frost was in on the plan but absent at its execution, possibly even forging the weapon that did the deed. That means 17 beings in the room with uncle Addie, Hoid as wildcard.
Taln is amazing and Roshar does not deserve him.
Info dumps that occur during the natural flow of the story, so skillfully added that you barely realize exactly how much info was imparted except on rereads are to be commended. Brandon is an excellent writer but we already knew this.
For all we know, there could have been dozens of people present at the Shattering – we know so much nothing about it. Hoid was there, we know that. Frost certainly seems to know a lot, and is linked to the 17th Shard group in some way, so … maybe was there. Maybe not. On the other hand, Khriss knows more about the Cosmere than either of them, and she definitely wasn’t there.
SPOILERS for Mistborn: Secret History and Bands of Mourning
::
::
::
::
Just realized this: The Listeners’ “gods” – parsh who refused to pass on after death – did exactly what Kelsier did, but with the opposite goals and motivations: they sought and still seek vengeance and destruction; Kelsier sought to help his world survive and be reborn. And I think, based on the scarred arms in Wax’s vision at the end of Bands of Mourning, that Kelsier somehow got his own body back, unlike the Fused who steal the bodies of living parsh.
@@@@@45, aggie1:
I mean we don’t know for sure, but I imagine that more likely it’s just Spook. I am curious about the cognitive shadows though. Kelsier is the first cognitive shadow that we know existed, chronologically before the Heralds, but he did it “against” the will of Preservation, at the shardpool (if I remember correctly). That would imply that Odium has a shardpool somewhere that would have been accessible to the Parsh, while they were on Roshar. Not sure how that would work…
@@@@@ 44, Wetlandernw
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve always had the vibe that Hoid’s overall story arc – across the books – was about redemption*. I think it’s pretty poignant that he seems to spend most of his “time” on Roshar where he’s helping people “redeem” themselves / find a purpose. I’m curious if you, Ann or Lyn or any other readers got that vibe as well?
@@@@@36 & 37 Not just 4,500 years of torture. Tack on all the torture where he was with the whole group of heralds where he never broke.
@@@@@ Various Who’s Frost? What books is Frost in? I’ve read everything published but don’t recognize the name.
Frost is a dragon, an immortal, a contemporary of Hoid and the founder of the in-world organization 17th Shard. He is the recipient of Hoid’s 1st letter in WOK. He was alive at the Shattering of Adonalasium and seems to have been a participant in the plan. He isn’t specifically named in any published works. Presumably he’s in Dragonsteel but I have yet to read it. I know others have. Hope that answers your question.
@42 “in that room” – personally I picture the Shattering happening on a mountaintop. I’m full-on picturing Paarthurnax at the Throat of the World.
I wonder if Hoid is a Judas figure, except pursuing redemption rather than death in the aftermath. That would be an interesting twist.
@33 necessary eagle
I agree, I feel there is more the Stormfather doesn’t know, or isn’t saying, and that Taravangian and crew haven’t discovered yet.
@34 EvilMonkey
Well the knights did seem to know there was something wrong with Tanavast (as mentioned by the Elsecallers I think in the gemstone archive). That doesn’t change the good point necessary eagle made that if that was the only reason, then why couldn’t the radiants just not use their powers? They could still remain bonded and not kill their spren who as we see with all the radiants so far, are extremely emotionally tied together to their radiant. For them to not only give up their powers, but knowingly murder their spren makes me feel like there is more going on.
@35 Keyblazing
Regarding your second point, I think there is some information we are missing. Honor was not as good at future sight as Odium and Cultivation. Maybe he didn’t think it would go on as long as it did? Maybe it was a joint plan with Cultivation? Though the whole sacrificing yourself for a long plan that trumps the enemy at the end has been done before in Mistborn, so I dunno. So many questions that I cannot wait for the answers to! :)
@36 Gaz
Taln is confirmed to be a flashback character in the second half of the series, so although that does not cinch he will get “back to normal”, it does guarantee we have a good chance of seeing what he was like when he was “normal”. I know that wasn’t quite what you were hoping for, but its something! lol
Well up until Jezrien’s death, Brandon has kept saying the Oathpact is not over, and not as weak as the Heralds think, but now that Jezrien got killed, I don’t think we truly know yet. The implication is that Jezrien is dead dead, though I do not think it has been explicitly confirmed.
@37 Capn Boxers
Agree on all points :)
@39 Evelina
I agree on all points and that does make me wonder. Would people read Jasnah differently had she been a man? Vasher/Zahel is pretty gruff and reserved with his emotions. I wonder how people read him? Honestly Jasnah is my favorite character, but despite her getting very little screen time if at all, I feel Brandon has done a wonderful job with her. Just makes me so excited to keep reading :)
@40 RogerPavelle and @41 Wetlandernw
So I found two WoB that state Hoid was offered the shard during the shattering, and that the shattering happened all at once. I will edit them into this post after I post it as comments tend not to post if I include too many links. Just sharing for added info.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3337
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/61-firefight-seattle-ubooks-signing/#e1292
@42 EvilMonkey
I do not believe there is any confirmation whether or not Frost was present at the shattering, but there is confirmation that Frost does not possess a shard. Still looking for that WoB, but 100% sure it exists.
edit: having trouble finding it. Could have confused it with the confirmation that Frost is not a worldhopper. Will keep looking
@45 aggie1
Mistborn Spoilers
Ehhh, thing is all that is left of Kelsier’s body was bones sans the flesh as a Kandra ate it. There is a theory that a Kandra took up his bones once more, and then they used a spike to connect Kelsier to the kandra body. There is also another theory that they took any old person, and used the spike to tie Kelsier to that body, and Kelsier’s cognitive self altered the body to reflect how he used to look, like how the fused change the body they inhabit.
@46 Keyblazing
It has been confirmed by WoB that it is not Spook’s body.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e9667
@48 EvilMonkey
Great summary! :)
Ok, so I figure this is as good a place to post it as any…
Inspired by this week’s recap of the revisit of the prelude, I decided to start reading Way of Kings again. (and wow, there are so many things packed in to the prelude and prologue that I now catch) So, I just got to chapter 2 and the opening death rattle got me thinking. So, there are ten orders/ten heralds. But… only 9 unmade. We’ve been speculating about how there seems to be some symmetry between the unmade and the radiant orders, but 9 vs 10 throws that off. There has also been speculation that the Unmade are, well, unmade somethings or someones. Perhaps used to be human as Shallan was pondering. Well, 9 of 10 does fit a very specific group of people. 9 of the 10 heralds broke. What if the Unmade are aspects of the various Heralds created from their torture and eventual breaking? And since Taln never broke there was never a 10th… What do you all think?
Of course, Taln has now broken so does that mean, if I’m right, that a new Unmade should be…er…made? Could the Everstorm be the manifestation of the new unmade brought to Roshar?
Edited some typos.
@@@@@ 33 necessary eagle
One point: It’s possible, even probable, that the Knights didn’t know what breaking their oaths like that would do to their spren. When Knights died in the past, their spren didn’t become deadeyes. They would become mindless in the Physical, or at worst be left unconscious like Syl was, but that’s all. So they might have expected that breaking the oaths would have had the same effect.
I think if they can convince the parsh to stop donating there bodies then the fused problem is kind of solved. Also I think tension is like regrowth only for inanimate objects
@52 Whitespine
Great theory! Only thing is Brandon has confirmed that the number of Unmade is fixed and it is 9. But awesome job!
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33-arcanum-unbounded-san-francisco-signing/#e2745
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9580
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6612
@53 Aeshdan
I dunno, personally given that Kaladin almost killed Syl by himself by accident would say to me it is something that could have happened in the past and thereby the knights radiant would have had some experience with it. I think the Recreance would be the first time it happened intentionally and enmasse. That said, Brandon did confirm, depending on how far advanced in your oaths you are, both spren and radiant could voluntarily end the bond without killing the spren.
@54 telema
Good point, though generations worth of slavement is hard to get past, Sah being a prime example.
@55 on @53: That’s another point- if it were possible to break the bonds without killing the spren, you’d think they at least try to go that route. Unless they did and all the shardblades that currently exist are from fifth-oathers. Then again, you’d think the people who were spiritually in tune with their spren that much would be even more reluctant to kill them.
I really do think that the KR must have become convinced that their spren were evil. And that whatever evidence they had was so overwhelming that they didn’t care that these were the same spren they’d known and loved for years, and who were probably crying out for them to stop.
Unless (dun dun dun) the spren themselves thought they needed to die, and asked their Knights to kill them. I mean, no one’s ever revived or spoken to a deadeye, we don’t know that they didn’t commit suicide voluntarily. It’s pretty unlikely, and you could probably poke a bunch of logical holes in my reasoning, but I’m putting it out there anyway on the off chance that I can say “I called it! For once!”
@56 necessary eagle
That is a good point and could help explain slightly the shortage of shardblades in modern day if it was the result of only fully oathed knights. The vision of the recreance shows hundreds of knights alone (assuming they were fully oathed). If that included radiants from third oath up, that would potentially be an even greater number of shardblades seemingly missing. Though if the lesser oathed radiants were able to voluntarily break the bond with their spren (it requires both parties), then those spren theoretically could have explained that what happened to the dead eyes was voluntary to the other spren. Unless of course it was a secret for some unknown reason and there is a secret spren society to add to the already countless secret societies (sons of honor, ghostbloods, etc)! lol
Necessary_eagle @56 – I’ve wondered about that too. Were the spren actually in agreement, that Surgebinding needed to be stopped, and the only way to do it permanently was for the spren to sacrifice themselves? That would be terrible, but I can see them doing it if they thought it was right. It’s actually a little easier to imagine than the Radiants all killing their spren, and doing so in a way that would not give the spren a chance to argue about it. I have trouble figuring out how so many could do it without consent from the spren.
I essentially stopped visiting TOR starting last spring when I read Leigh Butler’s announcement on the WoT reread that TOR was changing how it ran content, and as a result rereads and other columns and the like were getting the ax. I only saw this by accident, and I am excited to read this, because I love this series. I stopped coming because TOR got rid of the content I valued, and I will give it another chance because I see they may have changed their minds about it.
I know that this has nothing to do directly with this reread, but I wanted to note it somewhere that someone might see it, as a voice in support of such actions. As someone who works in media, I know that each phone call or letter about something generally means there are many more who feel the same way who did not take the time to make the comment.
Did you see the new WoT read? It has already reached the beginning of the second book.
@59 – Well, actually they stopped a re-read of the original re-read. So the original re-read is still there for anyone to peruse. Doing another one wasn’t really necessary. That’s just my opinion, of course.
@birgit, #14: prophets have always spoken to people while in a trance. See, for instance, the Pythia of Delphi. I’d bet money Brandon got the idea from reality, not a different work of fiction (which also got the idea from reality).
@Aeshdan, #18: the text, and both Ruin and Preservation in dialogue, say it was a pact. Why do you think both Ruin and Preservation separately lied about what happened?
@Keyblazing, #35: Cultivation is the opposite of a fighting Shard. She’s all about growth–look at what Cultivationspren do, notably refusing to fight (Windle).
I keep hoping the arm-scarred figure on the Southern Continent of Scadrial is not actually Kelsier, but a kandra imitating him. (They have his bones, after all.) This is because I hate Kelsier and want him out of the narrative, though, not from any story-internal reasons.
Yeah, I feel like the Stormfather shouldn’t have been so defensive. Spreading the truth about the arrival of Humans in a controlled manner is the best way to handle it. However, I don’t find the truth that disturbing to me. We can discuss it more later, but how many people would turn to evil just because the evil they were fighting was here first? If the Aztec empire returned from the dead, and was going through the US slaughtering and sacrificing civilians should we turn to their side because they were here first? If Germany was fighting a fascist empire in the future, should they stop just because they were the first fascists or should that strengthen their resolve to put a stop to what they turned against?
Regardless of any human / parish men conflict in the past, Odium is a threat to the whole cosmere and needs to be stopped.
Brendan @63 – of course, we’ll talk much more about it later, but at this point I wonder how many people are thinking in terms of fighting Odium. They don’t know as much as we do about the Shards, and it’s likely that to them, it’s a conflict between races. To suddenly discover (emphasis on suddenly, out of the blue) that your people were invaders would be a shock. What they don’t have yet is the perspective on the Shards and the spren, and I suspect that both the characters and the readers will learn a lot more which will affect understanding.
@63 Brendan – I’m just going to be pedantic and state that Mussolini’s party in Italy were the first fascists.
The Alethi might think that being invaders/conquerors is a good thing.
#66, @birgit: I don’t think there’s a “might” in that. The Alethi/Vorin culture thinks conquering is a good thing. “This” mortal life is just a practice ground for fighting the Voidbringers in the next life, forever. It’s very Old Norse-influenced.
So the problem is not with the conquest itself – it’s the idea that humans were the original Voidbringers. Worth some thought.
@68 That’s a good point. Seeing yourself as the demons of your mythology would be shattering. All the more reason to explain it early :)
Yeah, I had never thought of it that way. It puts a very different light on things. I kept trying to think of it in terms of semi-relevant real-life situations, but the only things I could think of were things that are well-documented in history. We may perhaps change our perspective on historical events, but they aren’t a surprise to us. Even so, I couldn’t quite see hundreds or thousands of Radiant – as in, ALL OF THEM (except the Skybreakers) – turning away so completely, nor could I quite see the abandonment of the coalition, if it’s just a matter of “our ancestors conquered your ancestors.” They’re used to that sort of thing – Roshar has lots and lots of places that have been conquered by other places, and it’s not that big a deal except that it determines who gives the orders, or who’s rebelling against the orders. It just wasn’t enough, somehow.
But when you put it in terms of beliefs so deeply ingrained that they’re simply part of your DNA… It’s not just an issue of conquest: as you say, they suddenly learned they WERE the mythological demons, and what they’re doing now appears to be the demonic activity that destroyed heaven… THAT might make a person stop and think real hard about how these actions can possibly be justifiable.
Not to mention they’re getting direct confirmation from the Almighty that verified all their fears and doubts. But it still makes me wonder what the spren at the time had to say about it.
Another question. When did Re-Shepir arrive at Urithiru and why didn’t the Radiants expell her. A lot of time had passed but I figure they knew all about the Unmade. This was before the Hierocracy after all; all their historical records shouldn’t have been tampered with. If Shallan, a Lightweaver who knows nothing in comparison to pre-Recreance Radiants, was able to discover, confront and chase away this particular Unmade, it should have been a simple matter for a room full of Lightweavers to duplicate Shallan’s MOA or even better it. Two possibilities spring to mind immediately. One, Re-Re wasn’t there when the Knights broke; she came later. If that’s the case then what the hell was happening at the city? Several of the gem library accounts reported wrongness at the tower and the Sib withdrawing. Two, Shallan, and by extension all the new Knights, are more powerful than the Knights of old. Maybe the Stormfather isn’t the Only spren to get a piece of Honor’s shattered power. Maybe Tanavast’s counter-stroke was to give all his spren a boost upon dying, at least all the ones not bonded to Radiants. Don’t know, just something to think about.
She was captured and inprisoned there then over the time managed to escape.
Captured and imprisoned? Yes she was. Whether she was locked down in Urithiru or if it happened centuries before the Recreance has not yet been confirmed.
@58 Wetlandernw
My issue with the spren being in agreement and voluntarily sacrificing themselves is the unbonded spren seem to hate humans and think it is for the reasons stated by the Stormfather. For the bonded spren to be in on it, but the unbonded be excluded, it would either require a massive agreement of bonded spren across all orders suddenly and quickly for the unbonded spren to not know the actual reasoning and thereby hate radiants, or it would require all the spren across all orders to agree that for some reason the unbonded spren should not be told the reason why they are voluntarily sacrificing themselves before they do it. I feel that if Kaladin could kill Syl by accident without her approval, it would not be a great issue to do so intentionally without the spren’s approval. It seems to me to be harder to end the bond without hurting the spren (requiring both spren and radiant being in agreement to end it, being limited on how many oaths can be sworn before it is unable to be done, etc) than ending with hurting the spren.
@63 Brendan Morgan
If you are referring to the Skybreakers switching sides with Nale, that wasn’t so much that humans were the voidbringers as that how Nale saw the law being interpreted. If you were living in your house, and a person came along and kicked you out and claimed the home as theirs, you would then go to the cops. The cops would show up, and hold to your original ownership, and kick the person out. (now there is such a thing as squatters rights, and easement, but both require uncontested access, which I would assume a war would count as contesting access). So in this example, you would be the parshendi, and the person who kicked you out would be the humans, and the cops would be Nale and the skybreakers. Not saying his decision was ultimately right, but it did have its own logic.
If however you are referring to the radiants on whole killing their spren because they found out they were the original voidbringers, I agree I still feel there is information that we are missing. That there needs to be more going on to cause the Radiants to voluntarily kill what is essentially part of themselves.
@64 Wetlandernw
I see where you are coming from, and not to get political, but there are numerous conflicts both present day, and in the past where one party viewed themselves as the aggrieved, and it was later revealed they were the aggressors, and it still didn’t end the war, or change anything. So for me at least, yes the revelation that they are actually the voidbringers would be damaging, I do not think it by itself was enough to drive the radiants to kill their spren. I think there is still more yet revealed.
@70 wetlandernw
Eh, my problem is that the Radiants, either through the spren, the Heralds or directly with Tanavast, had a pretty good level of access to information. The mundane people, and over the centuries sure the mythology would have a bigger kick, but for me personally, if I am having a regular running dialogue with my “god”, it would remove a lot of the mysticism, and make them more “human”. So my mentality is, if my “god” is more human like, has faults, and can make mistakes, I am personally less inclined to see the opposite in such absolutes as “evil” and so on. Basically I would be more likely to say to myself “Well storms, people like myself ages ago really messed up. We started this whole conflict. Maybe we can find a way to end peacefully?” Which actually is what is happening with the current cast. They are attempting to come to terms with it, in each their own ways, and are trying to find a better way of dealing with it. I think just as the current group of Radiants begin to accept this, is when another info bomb will fall revealing the rest of or the actual reason the Radiants killed their spren, and potentially shatter the cast. The subsequent book will then be with them questioning themselves regarding it. At least that is my interpretation/theory.
@71 EvilMonkey
The way I see it, is Re-shephir took up residence in Urithiru after it was abandoned. I could not see the Radiants recording their messages into the gemstones, while Re-shephir was just hanging out in the same room. My assumption is that she was sealed elsewhere, escaped, and holed up in Urithiru after it was abandoned. Now to clarify, I feel the storing of messages in the gemstones, came before the recreance, as it mentioned the radiants were going to do something to prevent the war from continuing and had to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram. So as far as we know, Re-Shephir could have gotten caught up in whatever was done to Ba-Ado-Mishram, and didn’t escape till hundreds of years after the Recreance. Actually it would make sense to me that the Radiants would have sealed away all the Unmade first, thinking they stopped the war. Then they find out something that makes them kill their spren. The prisons of the Unmade either not being maintained, or someone stumbling across them starts the domino effect of one after another the Unmade being released once more, but without the Radiants to fight back. The Unmade then hang around for so long they become natural phenomena, assumed to be just how the world is. At least that is my own take on it.
@74 I was referring to the Radiant’s killing their spren and abandoning their oaths. Learning that thousands upon thousands of years ago humans invaded isn’t shocking enough to cause the Recreance. However, as someone else pointed out, seeing your selves as the demons and destroyers of heaven might.
I think Nate’s decision is unjustifiable. He knows about Odium. He knows about and was tortured by the Fused. I see it as a capitulation. He may try to absolve his consious by tying it to the law, but its a flimsy excuse. He wants this to end. He is willing to sell out the world, and the Parshendi whose lives are being stolen by the fused. I doubt most of the Parshendi want their lives
@75 vulcronos
I understand now. I still disagree, and feel having a direct line of communication with their “god” would lead to a view of those involved being less extreme of “good” and “evil” but I see where you and wetlandernw are coming from
Well I do not think Nale’s madness helps his decision making skills lol. I agree the rationale is faulty as he had not let this stop him in the past everytime the voidbringers came back, but I do feel there is logic to be found in his argument. I personally do not think he made the choice so it all ends. I think he has lost all confidence in his sense of justice (both of his ideals), so has given himself up to other authority (Ishar), and the law even as he accepts the law itself is faulty. Basically I do agree he is a man at his wits end, but he is still trying, at least insofar as he feels he is capable of trying.
A couple of quick thoughts:
Sillyslovene @26:
There is no reason to believe that there were 9 Heralds intended initially, rather than that one of the 10 people selected got cold feet at the last moment and Taln replaced him. The original pick was probably a general and he was replaced by a simple soldier who proved to be extraordinary in the role. It has been suggested that he had some other profession, but I don’t see it, as the Heralds were clearly chosen with their professions very much in mind and also it seems fairly likely that Taln was in love with Shalash already during their mortal lives, i.e. had access to her person, which would be much more plausible as a soldier who earned his place in her father’s guard or something along these lines.
I’d still find it very disappointing if it turns out that Talenel was just so much better than the other 9 and that was the only reason why he could hold out, alone, for 4.5 millenia. And, for that matter, how could Jezrien have believed in the Prelude that Taln might hold out forever?! This makes no sense – everybody has their breaking point, as he would have known all too well. But as the things stand, they kinda validate Vorin belief that soldiering is the highest calling.
Also, while Honor may have been deluded about humans’ ability to hold to their oaths under extreme duress, surely the 10 wouldn’t have been as blind and arrogant? But then again, an expression (paraphrasing): “as unprepared as the Heralds on the day of Reckoning” has been used somewhere in SA, so it was hinted that maybe they didn’t wholly understand what they were agreeing to. This would also explain the otherwise bizarre decision to include father and daughter in their number, which surely made it more difficult for the 2 of them to resist.
Also, if the spren can’t break oaths, how is it that Sja-Anath can corrupt them? Or that Notum told Our Heroes that his crew could be tortured for information and would eventually give them up? I mean, if they could just swear to keep a secret and wouldn’t be able to divulge it no matter what, then they could both protect the humans and likely spare themselves torture as it would be just a waste of time for the Fused to question them.
Wetlandernw @70:
Particularly since the problem of Desolations, the Parsh and possibly the Unmade appeared to be solved for good at that point.
Another good line from Jasnah that I think will be relevant for future discussion. Especialy given where her charcter can go at times.
“Fighting makes you strong, but also callous. I worry I have learned to much of the latter and not enough of the former.”
@77 if there is an unspoken addendum to “spren can’t break oaths” then it could work. Specifically if it’s “spren can’t break oaths because doing so kills them” then they generally speaking won’t be breaking oaths unless they’re in a situation where doing so and dying is preferable to living.
As for corrupting them, I have no idea. Maybe they’d still be bound by the letter of old oaths or maybe being corrupted somehow erases that. I look forward to finding out from future texts.
Does anyone know the timing of the Recreance and when the parshmen were enslaved? I’m thinking the Recreance was a result of a confluence of things. Particulary, Honor going mad and saying that the Radiants will destroy the world. And then they accidentally (?) enslave the parshmen with their powers. It was almost like proof of what Honor was raving about. But again, that depends on the timing of these events.
@77 Isilel and @79 soursavor
I theorize that it would not require breaking any oaths to be corrupted or “enlightened” by sja-anat. Potentially it could be just a new interpretation of the oaths made. I base this on a very loose, and probably completely unrelated evidence of how the corrupted spren we see in Kholinar still fundamentally function the same. Pain spren despite being corrupted are still attracted to pain, and so too with shame spren and so on. So just like the songs of the parshendi alter slightly (instead of appreciation, it would be envy, and so on), I could see the corrupted spren still being functionally the same, but be “colored” slightly differently. Hopefully the rambling randomness of that theory makes sense.
@80 Austin
Short answer is I do not think we know. The implication in the epigraphs is whatever was done to the parshmen to prevent them from transforming was intentional on the part of the bondsmiths, elsecallers, and truthwatchers. Could that be part of the reason for the Recreance? Sure, in my opinion I think it is possible. Personally I think the order went Last Desolation, Radiants begin abandoning Urithiru around the same time, or slightly before whatever was done to Ba-Ado-Mishram to affect the parshmen occured, then Recreance. Here are some WoB regarding the timing of the Recreance, even though they do not tell us much.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7-calamity-release-party/#e7075
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e125
commenting for this one to be part of my conversations